Comments on: Church of the world and not of the church http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/ Wed, 23 May 2012 16:55:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Johnny Carson http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5523 Johnny Carson Mon, 18 May 2009 02:26:31 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5523 Hang in there Matt...more to come. I'm packing for a trip to Bosnia tomorrow and will get back to this on thurs or fri. Hang in there Matt…more to come. I’m packing for a trip to Bosnia tomorrow and will get back to this on thurs or fri.

]]> By: Matt Cleaver http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5515 Matt Cleaver Sun, 17 May 2009 20:36:00 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5515 Wow, I just read through the comments. Didn't realize I missed out on such interesting conversation. Wow, I just read through the comments. Didn’t realize I missed out on such interesting conversation.

]]> By: A Drive-By Toga http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5504 A Drive-By Toga Fri, 15 May 2009 14:33:01 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5504 Johnny Carson—calling something a “smokescreen” doesn’t make it so. Quite the contrary. A brief re-cap: 1. Adam McLane proposes an alternative to a problem he sees in the practice of “Church.” 2. You question the Biblical correctness of Adam McLane’s proposal, saying it does not fit “criteria.” Nothing wrong with this, of course. Typical internet discussion. But note <i>you</i> used the word “criteria.” Not me. If your main objection is this deviation from a criteria—one would naturally question WHAT that criteria was. 3. I question what “criteria” you used (and gave indication of where I was heading.) 4. You run away from it. Amusingly, this is precisely what my previous pastors, elders, deacons, Sunday School teachers, etc. did. I asked questions they couldn’t answer. (Nor could I find the answers on my own research.) You called that “failure.” Yet engage in the same activity…Again, your words. Not mine. “Failure.” Like you, they could only revert back to Christian coin-phrases. (Honestly, Johnny Carson, I attended Church for a long, long time. I taught Sunday School, small groups, and preached on the rare occasion. I know the background of the Samaritan Torah, the reasons it is claimed what the woman said, and why the difference was highlighted. Repeating it to a guy like me is only…tiring.) This is why Adam’s proposal is interesting. Different. Engaging. And the traditional model is failing. We ask questions and get preaching. We look for differences in Christians and get rationalizations. We look for action and see full parking lots on Sundays but unwilling hands on Monday through Saturday. A church that is far more interested in my participation in helping others than whether I meet the explicit Membership requirement? Fascinating! A church that boringly repeats useless platitudes sufficient only to convince those already convinced? Well…sufficient as a social club, I surmise and giving one a sense of community…but nothing I (or the rest of us heathen secularists *grin*) would be remotely interested in attending. Perhaps that is more effective than the pitch-forks and torches to keeping us away. Be stagnant. Anyway…thanks for the discussion. Johnny Carson—calling something a “smokescreen” doesn’t make it so. Quite the contrary.

A brief re-cap:

1. Adam McLane proposes an alternative to a problem he sees in the practice of “Church.”
2. You question the Biblical correctness of Adam McLane’s proposal, saying it does not fit “criteria.”

Nothing wrong with this, of course. Typical internet discussion. But note you used the word “criteria.” Not me. If your main objection is this deviation from a criteria—one would naturally question WHAT that criteria was.

3. I question what “criteria” you used (and gave indication of where I was heading.)
4. You run away from it.

Amusingly, this is precisely what my previous pastors, elders, deacons, Sunday School teachers, etc. did. I asked questions they couldn’t answer. (Nor could I find the answers on my own research.) You called that “failure.” Yet engage in the same activity…Again, your words. Not mine. “Failure.”

Like you, they could only revert back to Christian coin-phrases. (Honestly, Johnny Carson, I attended Church for a long, long time. I taught Sunday School, small groups, and preached on the rare occasion. I know the background of the Samaritan Torah, the reasons it is claimed what the woman said, and why the difference was highlighted. Repeating it to a guy like me is only…tiring.)

This is why Adam’s proposal is interesting. Different. Engaging. And the traditional model is failing. We ask questions and get preaching. We look for differences in Christians and get rationalizations. We look for action and see full parking lots on Sundays but unwilling hands on Monday through Saturday.

A church that is far more interested in my participation in helping others than whether I meet the explicit Membership requirement? Fascinating! A church that boringly repeats useless platitudes sufficient only to convince those already convinced? Well…sufficient as a social club, I surmise and giving one a sense of community…but nothing I (or the rest of us heathen secularists *grin*) would be remotely interested in attending. Perhaps that is more effective than the pitch-forks and torches to keeping us away. Be stagnant.

Anyway…thanks for the discussion.

]]> By: adam mclane http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5503 adam mclane Fri, 15 May 2009 13:40:06 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5503 I think it's a good time to point out the obvious. Toga- you know that according the Scripture any Bible believing church should absolutely welcome you into their fellowship. This concept that the people get to define who is worthy of fellowshiping with isn't a Biblical one, it is an invention of man just like many churches use half of a verse to "prove" women can't be ordained as ministers. Please don't allow the bigotry of man prevent you from connecting with the person of Jesus Christ. I wish you lived in San Diego. Johnny- I respect your opinion, I understand it. But I think you're incorrect. I'm not sure why you think you are one ounce better than Toga. Your sins stink just as bad as mine and Johnny's. You are no better than either of us. According to your own view of Scripture, one to which I hold as well, we are all equally unworthy of Christ. Stop trying to make yourself feel better by pointing out the flaws of others. We all fall short of God's glory each and every day. Re-read your comment and you'll see that you are taking a positional of "I'm better" than Toga. It simply isn't helpful. Sorry for sounding so harsh, perhaps I shouldn't comment before I've had coffee. I think it’s a good time to point out the obvious.

Toga- you know that according the Scripture any Bible believing church should absolutely welcome you into their fellowship. This concept that the people get to define who is worthy of fellowshiping with isn’t a Biblical one, it is an invention of man just like many churches use half of a verse to “prove” women can’t be ordained as ministers. Please don’t allow the bigotry of man prevent you from connecting with the person of Jesus Christ. I wish you lived in San Diego.

Johnny- I respect your opinion, I understand it. But I think you’re incorrect. I’m not sure why you think you are one ounce better than Toga. Your sins stink just as bad as mine and Johnny’s. You are no better than either of us. According to your own view of Scripture, one to which I hold as well, we are all equally unworthy of Christ. Stop trying to make yourself feel better by pointing out the flaws of others. We all fall short of God’s glory each and every day. Re-read your comment and you’ll see that you are taking a positional of “I’m better” than Toga. It simply isn’t helpful.

Sorry for sounding so harsh, perhaps I shouldn’t comment before I’ve had coffee.

]]> By: Johnny Carson http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5502 Johnny Carson Fri, 15 May 2009 04:46:06 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5502 To coin a phrase right back at cha "Smoke gets in my eyes". The smoke from your smokescreen, that is. It's like when Jesus was trying to tell the woman at the well about the living water and she's saying "Doy...uhh...but our fathers worshiped here and yours worshiped there". Nice dodge lady...know what I mean? So I sincerely appreciate your thought-provoking questions, but I can't take the bait. Seriously, you turn your back on a blameless man who became the risen Savior, you reject the authority of God's Word, and you want to debate ecclesiology? In the words of a wise man "Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula!". As for your past making you who you are...I am grateful that you have a sense of God's sovereignty over your life. God can redeem the sin you committed and that committed against you for His unfolding and perfect purposes. Perhaps He allowed you to see so much error that when the truth was finally spoken to you, you would drink it deeply like, say, living water! The living water is the only quencher for a parched, thirsty soul. You have a soul, an eternal one, and the hour is coming when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. Would you like a drink? To coin a phrase right back at cha “Smoke gets in my eyes”. The smoke from your smokescreen, that is. It’s like when Jesus was trying to tell the woman at the well about the living water and she’s saying “Doy…uhh…but our fathers worshiped here and yours worshiped there”. Nice dodge lady…know what I mean? So I sincerely appreciate your thought-provoking questions, but I can’t take the bait. Seriously, you turn your back on a blameless man who became the risen Savior, you reject the authority of God’s Word, and you want to debate ecclesiology? In the words of a wise man “Grow up Peter Pan, Count Chocula!”.
As for your past making you who you are…I am grateful that you have a sense of God’s sovereignty over your life. God can redeem the sin you committed and that committed against you for His unfolding and perfect purposes. Perhaps He allowed you to see so much error that when the truth was finally spoken to you, you would drink it deeply like, say, living water! The living water is the only quencher for a parched, thirsty soul. You have a soul, an eternal one, and the hour is coming when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. Would you like a drink?

]]> By: adammclane.com » » Rethink Church http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5498 adammclane.com » » Rethink Church Thu, 14 May 2009 13:49:30 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5498 [...] to Sara who left this as a comment for the post, Church of the world and not of the church. I think Mr. Wesley would be proud. Share this [...] [...] to Sara who left this as a comment for the post, Church of the world and not of the church. I think Mr. Wesley would be proud. Share this [...]

]]> By: Sara http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5497 Sara Wed, 13 May 2009 19:10:59 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5497 This post is exactly the kind of thing we're discussing in our church right now. We showed this video clip on Sunday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l90eiNB7nMw It both inspires me and overwhelms me with how much we have to learn. This post is exactly the kind of thing we’re discussing in our church right now. We showed this video clip on Sunday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l90eiNB7nMw

It both inspires me and overwhelms me with how much we have to learn.

]]> By: A Drive-By Toga http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5496 A Drive-By Toga Wed, 13 May 2009 17:37:46 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5496 To coin a phrase, “Don’t cry for me, Johnny Carson!” *grin*. My background is what it is. I have no time machine to change it, and I am extremely grateful for it. It made me who I am—and I like who I am. You mentioned a “criteria” for being a Church. I surmise I hold very different views than your own (for example, as Paul did not write the Pastorals, I would not state he established the offices of elder or bishop); but for a moment I will slip back into familiar Christian orthodoxy sandals. I am curious as to how you would answer three questions: 1. What are the minimal criteria for a “church”? 2. Where can we verify that is the criteria and ONLY that is the criteria? 3. Which came first—the church or the criteria? To coin a phrase, “Don’t cry for me, Johnny Carson!” *grin*. My background is what it is. I have no time machine to change it, and I am extremely grateful for it. It made me who I am—and I like who I am.

You mentioned a “criteria” for being a Church. I surmise I hold very different views than your own (for example, as Paul did not write the Pastorals, I would not state he established the offices of elder or bishop); but for a moment I will slip back into familiar Christian orthodoxy sandals.

I am curious as to how you would answer three questions:
1. What are the minimal criteria for a “church”?
2. Where can we verify that is the criteria and ONLY that is the criteria?
3. Which came first—the church or the criteria?

]]> By: Johnny Carson http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5495 Johnny Carson Wed, 13 May 2009 16:11:00 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5495 Toges, hearing even more of your background makes me very sorry that you were entrapped in such a horrible church to begin with. It sounds like your pastor and elders didn't meet the basic qualifications that their positions require. You said "unfairly disparaged", but if what you say is true, then the disparaging seems pretty fair. As for you and them living in your sin, you can choose for yourself what type of slave you will be...a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. My recommendation: Hey if you're going to be a slave either way, choose the one with the sweet benes in eternity. As for my unavoidable contention with Adam, I am bringing attention to his desire for a 501(c)(3) that makes no mention of the preaching of the Gospel or the establishment of elders as the Apostle Paul commanded. I have nothing against 501(c)(3)'s but they aren't exactly churches if they fail to meet a couple of the above-mentioned criteria. The Gospel deals with the heart of every man and every heart is dead until the Holy Spirit brings it to life through the ministry of God's word. No dead heart can produce fruit. Sure you can serve in some church as an atheist and actually do some good. Paint some walls, clean up after the bingo game...or if you don't have an actual building...memorize some verses and then teach them to the children, pull some weeds in the neighborhood, whatever you want. But will that satisfy God's wrath on your sin on judgment day? When you stand before Him, what will satisfy His wrath? Toges, hearing even more of your background makes me very sorry that you were entrapped in such a horrible church to begin with. It sounds like your pastor and elders didn’t meet the basic qualifications that their positions require. You said “unfairly disparaged”, but if what you say is true, then the disparaging seems pretty fair. As for you and them living in your sin, you can choose for yourself what type of slave you will be…a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. My recommendation: Hey if you’re going to be a slave either way, choose the one with the sweet benes in eternity.
As for my unavoidable contention with Adam, I am bringing attention to his desire for a 501(c)(3) that makes no mention of the preaching of the Gospel or the establishment of elders as the Apostle Paul commanded. I have nothing against 501(c)(3)’s but they aren’t exactly churches if they fail to meet a couple of the above-mentioned criteria. The Gospel deals with the heart of every man and every heart is dead until the Holy Spirit brings it to life through the ministry of God’s word. No dead heart can produce fruit. Sure you can serve in some church as an atheist and actually do some good. Paint some walls, clean up after the bingo game…or if you don’t have an actual building…memorize some verses and then teach them to the children, pull some weeds in the neighborhood, whatever you want. But will that satisfy God’s wrath on your sin on judgment day? When you stand before Him, what will satisfy His wrath?

]]> By: adam mclane http://adammclane.com/2009/05/11/church-of-the-world-and-not-of-the-church/#comment-5492 adam mclane Wed, 13 May 2009 13:54:20 +0000 http://adammclane.com/?p=4343#comment-5492 @toga- I know you don't live in my area... but I really wish you did. You would totally fit into my community group. Most of us are either pretty new believers or burnt out on church. This little community group actually brings me hope that "church" can work. It has brought tons of healing to my soul. @toga- I know you don’t live in my area… but I really wish you did. You would totally fit into my community group. Most of us are either pretty new believers or burnt out on church. This little community group actually brings me hope that “church” can work. It has brought tons of healing to my soul.

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